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Joel:
This is the Gameday on Rocky Top podcast episode 156 I'm Joel Hollingsworth and I am with Will Shelton. Will, what was that? Until it or the second time do this, just take two. So

Will:
Right.

Joel:
I

Will:
Yeah.

Joel:
Did the same joke twice. But hey,

Will:
Yeah,

Joel:
You

Will:
I know

Joel:
Know.

Will:
It's still I will say that even in two takes, Joel's intro is more peppy than you thought it was gonna be. And I will say again that after the BYU game, I felt, you know, we wrote about, listen, you just need to embrace this is this is where Tennessee is. We're really probably not doing ourselves any favors, holding onto all of the past and all that stuff. And just this is bad. It's going to be bad for a little bit here. And let's just embrace it. And I thought that that would create a more pleasurable viewing experience no matter what happened with the Gators.

Joel:
Hmm hmm hmm.

Will:
But and I wrote this morning, Monday morning that to see there was a long stretch of that game that was seven to nothing,

Joel:
Mm hmm.

Will:
You know, and like long time wise, because we had to review everything and all that stuff. And even though obviously the Gators end up winning by thirty one in Tennessee, there's not really a version of that game where you could talk years of it of Tennessee winning or driving two tires or something in the fourth quarter. So much of the stuff that seems to happen to Tennessee from right away with a bogus penalty in a dead ball situation. That wasn't a dead ball situation to the self-inflicted stuff to just for the second time in a row. And Gainesville getting within a hair of the end zone and then finding impossible ways to not get into the end zone. It was still really frustrating and I bet it was. If you're listening this podcast, I bet it was for you, too. And so I feel like we got the worst of all worlds where not only did Tennessee lose to the Gators by 31, we did it with a bunch of dumb self-inflicted stuff along the way. Game had seven turnovers in it combined. And just hard to feel much better about much of anything in that whole process. So yeah, that even being braced for bad and the first two games of the season, I think helping with that, the dumb stuff that Tennessee does against Florida continues to be every bit as frustrating, at least for me as it has ever been.

Joel:
Yeah, it's kind of funny. They did the impossible again. They went into a game where they basically had. It was like the first time in forever that they went into the Florida game without any expectations, and they still somehow failed to live up to those. No expectations. All right. The thing is, I thought that. I know they made mistakes, but it didn't seem that it was that the mistakes were really the problem. It seemed to me like they just got beat, I guess. Do you see it differently? Because, I mean, you did mention all the mistakes, but do you think that even absent the mistakes, that it would have been a better game? It didn't seem like it would have been me.

Will:
I think we have to separate it out on on both sides of the ball. I think defensively we need to give the defensive line credit. I didn't do a good enough job of this. I didn't do this at all. And what I wrote, they did a good job stopping the run. I think they did that well. They took a game plan that Kentucky had use against those guys and they've got a backup quarterback in there. So the concerns that we had after Georgia State and after last year of anybody is just gonna get whatever they want running the ball against this team. Not true. So kudos to that. You know, Florida has got talent. They've got talented running backs, that sort of stuff. So good job on that front. I think what is still abundantly clear about this defensive line is they can't get pressure on the quarterback by themselves. Period. Bad offensive. A lot of Florida just didn't seem to matter. And the like. I'm not I'm not mad about that. I'm not frustrated about that. That's just that's who Tennessee is. And that is probably who Tennessee is going to be at least the rest of this year. So if you want to get to the quarterback, you're going to need to send pressure. And if you're gonna do that, you're going to need to be better on the back end. And yeah, I mean, Kyle Trask is you know, you're flirting with 10 plus yards per attempt against Tennessee's defense because he's just got all day to throw in Tennessee doesn't have the guys to cover one on one. So, you know, maybe maybe less of an issue when you're playing, say, South Carolina now or Kentucky or Vanderbilt or Mississippi State. But in a game like that, I mean, it just wasn't it was it was basically pick your poison over the course of the game.

Will:
You can not blitz and get picked apart or you can blitz and really not get to him either way and still give a one on one stuff offensively to me was the all the self-inflicted stuff. A lot of it's guaranteed tanto to be sure, but just just dumb stuff and excruciatingly frustrating stuff. Even the Eric Gray fumble when it's twenty four to three, you're like OK, can we you know, can we at least be feisty, can we at least maintain some interest in some investment. And that didn't didn't work either. It reminded me a little of you were talking about not having any expectations. The one who was at now six years ago, the first Butch Jones year when they go to Oregon and they get decimated by Marcus Mariota and then they go to Gainesville and you're like, well, whatever. And they play Peterman and they get a pick six. And the first 10 minutes, another one of those things that never happen against Florida, sorts of things. And then Peterman does all that stuff that even that's a game that Tennessee is never going to win. It was excruciating just watching them shoot themselves in the foot over and over. So defensively, I think. Yes. Tennessee just got beat. And the problems that are they are not going to go away offensively. I mean, nobody knows really what the answer here is with Garrett. But there was so much just, you know, foot shooting off ness about Tennessee's offense. It was it was very much like I say, every bit as frustrating as any other time against those guys.

Joel:
So I think this is this is going to be painful. So I think we need to take it in small doses. So I'm going to take a quick time out here. All right. So we don't know. We'll get back to all of the all of the stuff. But I wanted to ask you, I I had no idea what to say after the game. Basically, me trying to put words together was kind of like trying to hit dumb wood Anderson on wide open touchdown play. It just wasn't happening for me. Right. So I defaulted to I basically wrote a post about a little house on the Prairie. This is

Will:
Right.

Joel:
What I did. That's

Will:
It's lovely.

Joel:
How it how I dealt with it. Right. So as part of this time out, do you have a favorite TV show that you're going to force on your children because they have no choice? At some point from from your childhood favorite childhood TV show.

Will:
I already have my son is getting ready to turn 2 this week and he loves like Superman, Batman. All that stuff and.

Joel:
The old school is.

Will:
Well, that's what is going to say. Is he? It's so weird raising a child in an on demand

Joel:
Mm hmm.

Will:
Universe when you didn't grow up in it. You know, of like, oh, I can just say Batman into my remote. And he has learned he can just say Batman into the remote. And that man will appear on the television with lots of options to buy versions of that for 14, 19 night or whatever.

Joel:
You

Will:
But.

Joel:
Can be careful with it.

Will:
Yeah. No.

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
Yes, we've we've we learned from it, we came in the room one day and what is the movie Deepwater Horizon. That movie

Joel:
Oh.

Will:
Was playing and Alex and I saw it in the theater. It's a fine movie. It's not a sort of movie you want to watch twice. But I was like, this is on. No, he bought it. And then and then he bought an episode of the television show Turn so it twice to learn. But yes, now

Joel:
Okay.

Will:
There's a real passcode on the purchases. But anyway, I do have on DVD, I have the I bought it years ago, the Batman animated series from the early 90s when I was in middle school. That where Mark Hamill does the voice of the Joker and all that good stuff. So

Joel:
Oh.

Will:
We need some of those are not two year old appropriate, but just to kind of change up the Batman variety. I have. I have put that on there. And I do have the old Adam West Batman. I'm looking at the DVD to it right now. Actually, the the old Adam West bang pow.

Joel:
Yes.

Will:
That bad stuff as well. So, yes, there it's. That's. That was in heavy rotation in our household before things. Things with battle football, football front.

Joel:
That's the one I remember that Adam y stuff when I was little. That was that was awesome. Speaking of your children navigating the Internet, you know, just basically getting behind the wheel for a joyride. When only was man, she'd only been home with us maybe a couple of years, maybe even a years. She must been three or four. And all of a sudden. I mean, I think Angela gave her or Angela stood up from the computer and only was just like pushing buttons. And it wasn't 60 seconds later that she was on an Asian dating wave website. So, yeah, you got to be careful, those kids, man. Yeah. Okay. So anyway. All right. Now I feel better. But let's get back to Florida. I was OK. You were actually complimentary of the defensive line, at least

Will:
Against,

Joel:
As

Will:
Right?

Joel:
Against

Will:
Yes.

Joel:
The run. Right. So because as I was trying to figure out what really went wrong, I was thinking, OK, you know, we got it. We had a suspect offensive line. They had a suspect offensive line. We have a suspect defensive line. And I think the difference was that there's their defensive line was actually a decent S.E.C. defensive line. So, you know, they could they could do to our offense what we didn't want to have done. And then our defensive line was basically the problem on defense for us, because they couldn't. As you said, they couldn't rush by themselves, which meant that you had to bring blitz is I think generally we brought Blitz is from the linebackers, which left the middle of the field wide open the whole time. And I think maybe at one point we we'd probably started rushing corners. But by that time I was just dazed and confused. So who knows? But I think that was basically the big problem. Did the deed. You already mentioned that. That's kind of what we're going to have to deal with the rest of the year. But is there anything we can do besides just hoping we don't play teams like Missouri and Alabama?

Will:
It's a good question. I mean, I just don't know. This is one of the most frustrating things about what's happening right now, is normally this is the point where you would say, let's just play all the young guys. But a lot of those guys are already playing.

Joel:
Mm hmm.

Will:
So Pruitt has recruited this well for 20, 20 events. He's able to hold onto to their current commitments. Two of their top four highest rated commitments right now are defensive linemen. So you've got some. Some positive outlook for the future. Obviously, you're going to get Emmit Gooden back next year as well. But I mean, it's it's just not there. And this is the wrong conference for that problem.

Joel:
Mm hmm.

Will:
So I just think that, you know, when we go back and look at at sack totals, Tennessee's whole decade here is Derek Barnett is the outlier, but really changed the whole conversation about how we view Tennessee's pass rush for three years there. But outside of one leads, you know, the NFL playmaking, defensive end. Tennessee hasn't had those guys just I mean, just has not had those guys on the defensive line for a very long time now. And they've recruited some of them. Well, I mean, Kahlil McKenzie is is Exhibit

Joel:
Mm hmm.

Will:
A for. You get the guy, you think he's gonna make the biggest difference and it just hasn't happened. Those guys have not been developed.

Joel:
In total to.

Will:
Yeah. Shai Tuttle. You know, there's a version of shots that all you'd like to see if he doesn't get just a gruesome injury against Georgia. A couple of years ago. But that's a guy that still is on an NFL roster.

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
You know, so is that particular problem gonna get better as the year goes on for four upperclassmen, four guys like Darrell Taylor in this mix, and I know Taylor's playing more of what we consider outside linebacker and this defense, but there's there's a lot of those names, those upper classmen names that you're just kind of like if the light hasn't come on for these guys or maybe the light did come on. And it's just not as bright as we wanted it to be. They're just not as talented as you were hoping they would be. There's just I just don't know how it's gonna get a whole lot better this year before we even begin to talk about somebody's gonna get hurt. Is is the quality of this line play going to improve week to week or is it going to be this is as good as it is now and they get beat up as the year goes on? I just I just don't know. But an inability to affect the quarterback. It's just one of a thousand things that'll get you killed against Alabama and Georgia and maybe Missouri. But it is a thing that makes playing a team like Florida and Florida with a backup quarterback when you're going up against other quarterbacks in the SCC that are on teams that are still winnable games for Tennessee, South Carolina, Mississippi State, all that stuff. If you can't affect a lesser quarterback into bad decision making, you're gonna make those guys comfortable. And I mean, we saw Trask was comfortable. I mean, when was he uncomfortable in that game? On Saturday. So I've the ingredients that Tennessee is going to need to beat teams better than left on their schedule. Mississippi State, Kentucky affecting course, shaky quarterbacks is on that list. And I'm I'm just not sure how good Tennessee's gonna be at that all year.

Joel:
I'm assuming you haven't seen the sports source yet this week,

Will:
No, I have not I haven't had a budget.

Joel:
Will Overstreet said something I thought was really interesting. He was really frustrated with the defensive line, primarily due to the fact that he said these guys don't have any moves except engaging with the guy in front of them and trying to push him back. They got no moves. You know, they're not trying to get around him. They don't have a swim move or whatever the defensive line moves that you are that you used to get around your blocker. They're just not trying to get around their guys. I just thought that was really interesting. I don't know if they're taught that way because, you know, I think in some schemes, what you're supposed to do is just occupy that guy. So the linebackers of have free gaps, you know. But anyway, he was really frustrated by that. He said Daniel Tooley was the best. Best pass rusher that we had. So anyway, I just thought that was interesting.

Will:
Yeah, I think that's the on the worst case. Like even now, there's always a worse version of what's happening in that sort of stuff. Somewhere on the worst case scenario list is. Oh, all these defensive coaches and all these guys really don't have a whole lot of practice. Not dealing with elite talent. So, you know, do they have the skill set, is it the same skill set or do they have the skill set to say, all right, while we're waiting on the four and five star guys to get here, can we turn three star talent into meaningful difference making, you know, kinds of guys in the SCC and I don't know.

Joel:
Yeah. All right. Quarterback on the change at halftime, number one. Were you surprised that they pulled Garen Tano and put it in Mauer? And did you did you like it?

Will:
Yes, I was surprised only because I believed those guys and not just those guys. I believed everybody that that covers this team that knows a whole lot about what's going on over there, what's actually going on over there than than you and I do that said, hey, no, like Gear Tennant really is the best option. And and I just know from the recruiting set that really Harrison Bailey that's coming in next year is kind of the anointed one here or whatever. So we'll we'll see about that. But so, yeah, it's it surprised me as poorly as he played in the first half. You're down 17 to nothing. You're not down 27 to nothing or something like that. You were gonna get the ball. It some plays were there. You know, obviously Cheney had drawn up some stuff that was working if it was executed correctly. So I just I just believed that guaranteed I still gave him the best chance to win. I think it does speak to some concerns. My assumption is that it speaks to some concerns about what's going on between the years for Gary and Santo, that that just the miscues, not just the wide open missed touchdown on wood, Anderson, that the miscues on swing passes, which is hot in Tennessee from the second play of the season and is a culprit in that loss to Georgia state. I think that there is some concern there among those guys that he just is not right and might not get right in this system.

Will:
I liked Mauer for the same reason everybody likes the backup quarterback, which is it made me interested. It made me more interested in what was happening. And that's kind of the point that we're at is let's see what this kid can do. I like the confidence he you know, he got away with a the the Billy don't be a hero throw. He got away with that on opening drive without throwing an interception. Interception. He did throw it was it was a battered ball sort of thing. So I don't know. Again, can they develop quarterbacks? Cheney can. We've seen that. And Cheney can do reclamation, too. But then when they put guaranteed a back in the game. It made me think, OK. Did they just do this whole thing to try to wake him up, to shake him up? Do you want to. This is this is the big to me, the most interesting topic of conversation right now in terms of this particular team is do you just go ahead and roll Brian Maurer out there and let him go against Georgia, Mississippi State and Alabama? Or do you wait? Which is what West Rucker was advocating. Wait until South Carolina and let him take that backstretch sort of thing. And everybody says, well, you know, Dobbs went in, doesn't have a choice at

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
That point in time. What's his name? Oh, man. Oh, for God's sake. Riley Ferguson was was secretly hurt, right? We didn't know that. And it was either Dobbs or Peterman at that point in time. So, you know, there was no choice other than to play Josh Dobbs. Against that gauntlet, given the option, I think you wait and see what they did with Tyler Bray in 2010 as it put him in there and the back half. So it's different again. Bray, you knew Bray was going to be your guy in the years ahead. I don't know that they feel that way about Mauer. And again, remember, Garen Tanto is a redshirt junior. Technically, he could play next year. It's who knows what to expect with all this. Now, you know, people have made the point and there's some words to it that man guaranteed. It looks like a guy that could use a graduate transfer. You know that they could they could use a fresh start somewhere. And plenty of other folks have benefited from that. And man, God bless him if that's what he wants to do now. But. It just made me interested in the ways that playing a backup quarterback makes anyone interested, it didn't make me particularly feel better about Tennessee's chances going forward. What do you think? I mean, do you do you play him now against Georgia? Do you? I don't ask having any particular answer to this. I just I think it's an interesting conversation.

Joel:
To answer the question, I think you go with Gary Dano. I think you try to find the Jonathan Crompton magic. I think for well, I got several other topics here. And I think as we walk through them, it will it will make sense.

Will:
Gotcha.

Joel:
Why? Why? I'm thinking that couple of points just on the change right now, though, quick, is that the team had more juice when Mauer came in. But I don't know whether that was juice because of Mauer or because of the boot. But chewing they probably got at halftime. So you can't really know why they had a higher level of energy. But I will say to you that I'm beginning to wonder whether Garen Tano is the right personality that this team needs right now. He's like the super calm, chill dude, which can be effective on a team that's doing well, but a team that needs energy, maybe not, you know. And then also it seems like if some of this reading between the lines and some of these articles or some of these interviews, that maybe part of his challenge is sort of confidence and insecurity and getting sort of beaten by prior mistakes, you know. And I you know, I can see why that would be. You almost can't blame the guy. I mean, he's had three years of trouble on Rocky Top, you know. And so, you know, I really don't blame him for that. But it's it's not something that's going to help the team. If when he makes a mistake, if he starts hanging his head and nobody feels confident from being around him anymore, you know.

Joel:
But that said, yanking him and then with with the intent of putting him back back in later, for a guy whose main problem is confidence, that doesn't seem like the right move, you know. So I still think that just because we've seen Mauer, we've seen shout, those guys might be fine in the future, but they're not right now. I still think the best opportunity is guaranteed snow and I still think he can do it. I remember I think we had a podcast with probably Spencer and Holly Anderson both on it. And I I want to say I remember Holly saying something about Crompton. We'll never be any good because he can't throw an eight yard screen pass. If you throw an eight yard screen pass into the ground, you're just a terrible quarterback and you will never be anything but a terrible quarterback. And I don't know whether I said it or whether I was just thinking it, but I think is when when everything's going wrong. Nothing is going right? Yeah, I mean. I mean, you can trip up the stairs. It doesn't mean you can't walk up the stairs, right. Just something was going wrong at the time. Maybe you were thinking about something else. And then I think we did see it. Later it was Cheney at that point. Right. With Crompton.

Will:
Yes. Yes.

Joel:
Okay. So so with Crompton. Here he was. He was terrible. It was a new coordinator, which I'm going to get to in a minute. And they figured something out and he got effective toward the end of the season. So you got to find it. I think that is the path to some degree of success for this season. Figure out. How Garen Tanner can be his best on this team this year. That's what I want to see. So the coordinators we've talked we've touched on this several different times. I think we have missed or underestimated the challenge of a new coordinator. We've got two new two new coordinators this year, and I'm working on a post for this. And because my memory is not very good, I have to do research. But I'm going to test yours because I know you actually have a good memory. Okay. So.

Will:
Everest now.

Joel:
Okay. So here it comes. 2008, eight formers been there forever. Chavis. Defensive coordinator. Been there forever. He gets a new offensive coordinator. And Dave Clawson, whole thing comes unglued. Former gets fired. Right. So then we got a whole new coaching staff, the coaching camera in 2009, and it takes him several games to figure it out. I don't remember with it how the defense was right out of the gate that year. Do you remember?

Will:
Well, great, because they were playing a terrible UCLA team and then against the Gators. Someone was talking about this in the comments on one of our pieces this past week where Kiffin took the air out of the ball in that game and Urban Meyer took that shot at him in the postgame about not actually trying to win the game, which is a little true. But. And then they were they were okay against Auburn. That was like twenty six to twenty two that Tennessee lost the game to Auburn before the Crompton Magic hit the following week against Georgia. And then they were really good the rest of the year when they weren't playing lackluster at Ole Miss or one of the most underrated Virginia Tech teams of all time that finished third and S&P plus that year. So, you know, pretty good, I thought, with Mike given.

Joel:
Ok. But the offense struggled for at least several games. OK. So 2010 Kiffin is gone. You got Dooley, you got a whole brand new staff. I don't even remember who is was it was Wilcox his first defensive coordinator. And his first

Will:
That was

Joel:
Offensive?

Will:
The wait. Are you sure we don't want this guy to just be our head coach hire. Like, are you sure he's not more qualified than Derek Dooley? OK.

Joel:
Yeah. Yeah. Who is the offensive coordinator for Dooley? First time around. First

Will:
Still,

Joel:
Year.

Will:
Jim Chaney kept him,

Joel:
Oh,

Will:
Kept

Joel:
That's

Will:
Him

Joel:
Right.

Will:
On board

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
There.

Joel:
Okay. All right. So you had some continuity there was the offense in a good.

Will:
In 10, that was so intense. That's Matt Simms for the first. Until South Carolina, when they brought in Bray and then almost won the game, and then Bray, you know, feasted on the back end of that schedule. I will also point out about 2010, you still got some former players rolling around in their den areas more General Jones, these guys on offense still still floating around in their head that he had Derek and Justin Hunter were freshmen. So offense offense looked great when playing lesser competition with stud freshman quarterback at the end of the year.

Joel:
Ok, 2011 comes when did Willcox Bolt after his first year. I got hear.

Will:
After the second year, after they lost to Kentucky and it looked like Dooley was not going to make it.

Joel:
Ok, so we'll cut.

Will:
2011 defense, so you had continuity in 10 and eleven,

Joel:
Ok.

Will:
But Bray and Justin Hunter get hurt in the first five games of the season and then your defense has to go against Alabama, LSU and Arkansas, who are elite teams without any sort of offense to back it up.

Joel:
Ok, 2012 Wilcox leaves duly hires Sal Sunseri, which doesn't work, and I think the office was good that year. It was still Cheney.

Will:
Still, Cheney Bray. Oh, yeah. All those guys that scored 30. It's what I used to tell Georgia fans when they were worried about hiring Jim Chaney as I was like, look, it's not his fault. It's something like they scored more than thirty five points eight times and gave up more than thirty five points eight

Joel:
Yeah,

Will:
Times. So it's

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
Not his fault. Yeah.

Joel:
That was all sensory. So he got duly fired. And then the whole the whole team leaves because Butch Jones brings in the best coaching staff in America from Cincinnati.

Will:
Right.

Joel:
Right.

Will:
Right.

Joel:
I'm sorry I stole your joke. Hey.

Will:
I stole. I stole it from J. Back in the in the rocket top dog days. That is that's Jay's joke

Joel:
Jay with

Will:
Copier.

Joel:
Four wise.

Will:
Jay. No, Jay

Joel:
Jay

Will:
Brenner,

Joel:
Brenner. OK.

Will:
Citizens eyes. Eyes. That is like he made that joke in the press conference. So that is a day one joke from Jay and he should get credit for

Joel:
Ok.

Will:
It.

Joel:
Good. All right. So that. OK. We're talking 20, what, 13, 14 now?

Will:
A third 13 is Bush's first year yet.

Joel:
Ok. So we got. I don't remember. Defense was.

Will:
Jan, Jan, SEC

Joel:
John

Will:
And

Joel:
Jan SEC

Will:
Mike. Mike in running

Joel:
For

Will:
The offense.

Joel:
Jake Yelich. Okay, all right. How long those guys last?

Will:
So but Jake, in leaves after two years and then 15 you get Jan SEC is still the defensive coordinator. But you bring in Mike Debord at the start of the 2015 season.

Joel:
Ok.

Will:
So you had to. Two years, same as duly the first two years, you had the same offensive and defensive coordinators.

Joel:
Ok. And then we had those two guys for. No, Jan SEC then left after his third year was asked to leave. Right.

Will:
Asked to leave after. Yeah, there's there's some off the field stuff probably going on there. He's after the Outback Bowl leaves and we get Bob Shoop.

Joel:
Super excited about Bob Shoop

Will:
Indeed.

Joel:
Didn't work

Will:
Bad,

Joel:
At least.

Will:
Yes. As they would say.

Joel:
Bad fit.

Will:
With Butch Jones.

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
Yeah. Bad. Bad fit. Yes.

Joel:
Ok. Did the offensive coordinator change that you're there, was it was the board

Will:
Still still the board.

Joel:
Ok? He actually did pretty good. Did it do well in his first year to.

Will:
What is your definition of doing well? I would in fifth 15 is we're not going to let Dobbs throw in a whole lot. And we are going to be perfectly content to, for instance, beat Missouri like 19 to 8 and be very OK with that. We're going to infamously get in trouble for going conservative against Oklahoma and Florida and be tagged that way for the rest of our crew and being down. What? Are 2043 and not getting aggressive until you had to. So I think I think that was the big question of that offseason going into 16 when everyone was so excited about us as would. Are you going to let him throw? Can you? Can you win this whole thing? Can he win the SCC? Can you win a national championship? Being risk management on the offense. Side of things.

Joel:
So September 2016 was the best month of Tennessee football in the last decade.

Will:
So you're Gators of my life? Yeah.

Joel:
It

Will:
It's.

Joel:
Was awesome. We had the Battle of Bristol.

Will:
Yep. Yep.

Joel:
We beat Florida. We beat Georgia. It doesn't get any better than that. We should have just quit right then. We should have retired, just retire the program. Are you still there?

Will:
I have I hung up because the podcast was not gonna get any better either. No. Yeah. I mean, that that's there's a whole alternate universe there. There are a number of alternate universes with Butch Jones where if one or two things goes differently, then his tenure looks a lot different. But yeah, and he's winning. You know, I think we have to give. We have to note the Appalachian State game in there, because in the moment that that hung around through Bristol, a game as we talked about last week, where Virginia Tech put it on the ground six times or Tennessee did what you do when a team does that six times. But then the Florida game, you know, and then the end of the Georgia game changed all that narrative and even Texas saying em to almost beat a team when you turn it over with six or seven times. You know, there was still that that sense. And I thought even Alabama, so many guys got hurt in that Texas 8 em game. Even the Bama and I was at that Bama game getting beat the way we did. To me, it was still easy to say, OK, number one. I picked Tennessee at that game, but I thought that a lot of those guys that got hurt would come back and play. Danny O'BRIEN and like Cortez McDowell and some other guys that did not. And so you just get hammered, but you think, all right, we got the bye week. We're gonna win the east, all that all that stuff. And we'll get another shot at these guys. And maybe the second time around we can do something different. And then South Carolina and yet all that.

Joel:
Ok. So 2016, though, the beginning of the season, Butch was in his what, third year?

Will:
Healthcare.

Joel:
Fourth year? Shoop was in his second, right?

Will:
It was first year.

Joel:
Oh, that was the first year for Shoop. Oh, OK. And then the offensive coordinator was who in 16,

Will:
Debord still.

Joel:
Second year, third year,

Will:
Second year for Debord.

Joel:
Second year for the board. OK, so some continuity. Except on defense. OK, so then 20, 17, Shoop was still there. Right. But we went to Larry Scott on

Will:
Right,

Joel:
Offense.

Will:
Because the board the board retired

Joel:
Right.

Will:
And that

Joel:
And

Will:
Wanted

Joel:
Then when.

Will:
To spend more time with his family, is it Indiana, right.

Joel:
Yeah,

Will:
So,

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
Yeah.

Joel:
Okay, so we lost some continuity on offense there in 2017, but it really fell apart before then anyway. Interesting. Okay, so then Pruitt comes on board. Brand new coaching staff. And then his second year, he changed both of his coordinators.

Will:
Correct. Though the previous defensive coordinator is I mean, those guys. Share is still on the staff. It's just not the defensive coordinator anymore.

Joel:
Yeah, I wonder how much has changed there, though. I think the plan was to change more than maybe he has. It seems like he's sort of back to calling plays. I don't know. Okay. Well, I'll see what I can make of all that stuff. But even if it's not like a direct correlation, that's a lot of discontinuity among the coordinator positions over the course of how many ever years it is. And that's to be part of the problem. So.

Will:
Yeah. I mean, it was, as you noted at the start of all that, it was the original problem. And to me still to this day, I mean, Dave Clawson is is what Dave Clawson is most responsible for, Philip Fulmer getting fired.

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
And and since then, you've only had two years. Year wanted to for duly. And you're one and two for Butch Jones, where you had the same offensive and defensive coordinators for four to your stretches. So,

Joel:
Okay.

Will:
Yeah, it's problematic.

Joel:
All right. So this may be hard for you to admit or concede. But would it be accurate to say that most of these guys have actually had success elsewhere when they've had time?

Will:
Some of other coordinators

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
I get now.

Joel:
Yeah. Start with class and I know it's a hard one for you.

Will:
Well, I mean, Clawson, that's his whole thing, right? Is that

Joel:
Yeah,

Will:
It takes time. I mean, that's

Joel:
Right.

Will:
That's the joke for four forever. So. And let me say, to be fair, people, I have gotten more e-mails about negative things I've said about Dave Clawson than just about anyone. Every anything I've said about anyone else, I think he deserved his his 2008 at Tennessee deserves to be called for what it is. But that dude is winning some games at Wake Forest, which is one of the hardest places to win, I think in power five. So,

Joel:
And he's dealing

Will:
Yeah.

Joel:
With offense. I mean, he's put up some points.

Will:
Yeah. His.

Joel:
Yeah.

Will:
His whole thing and set it on the front end, is it? This system is gonna take time to install. That's what happened at Bowling Green and that's what happened. You know, his first weight team is one of the worst offenses in the history of college football. But if you look at it, there's a side Bill Connelly tweeted this out where there's a sign that's taken as SB Plus data and grafted over time, not just the overall rankings, but the offense. If you take it, I'll tweet this out. If you take a look at that, at Tennessee's offense over the last 50 years. You can spot the clock fence on that on that line graph from a mile away. I mean, it is the worst offense in Tennessee in the last 50 years by miles and miles and miles.

Joel:
Right.

Will:
But yes.

Joel:
But but but

Will:
To

Joel:
The

Will:
Save

Joel:
But

Will:
Time.

Joel:
The.

Will:
Yes.

Joel:
Right. But the point is that it was it's terrible in the first year, but gets better.

Will:
Yes.

Joel:
Ok,

Will:
Yep.

Joel:
So.

Will:
Change. Same thing. More so, I mean, we wrote this in the magazine in the offseason. Obviously, he's been fine in his first year. Other places and then got much better in year two. That sort of stuff. Shoop has been great everywhere else. He's been

Joel:
Right.

Will:
Money

Joel:
What about.

Will:
Gift. Same. Same thing. I mean, distribute the USC for the same reason everybody struggle because they had all those sanctions and that sort of thing.

Joel:
Mike Debord.

Will:
Well, Debord, listen. Some of that goes back to Butch Jones. Regardless of what you think about the offense in 2015, in November of 16, Tinsley had the best offense in college football. Statistically, the best offense in college football because their D was banged up and Shoop wasn't a good fit. And you know, we're winning those games against Missouri and Kentucky, scoring fifty and sixty three points. So when when they wanted to, Jalen Hird was often seen by that point. So maybe that had some to do with it, too. But yeah, I mean, the board Debord and Josh Dobbs were running the best offense in college football. That that, you know, if Tennessee doesn't blow the South Carolina game, Dobbs is a Darkhorse Heisman candidate for what he's doing there in November. So that worked at Tennessee, not just other places. And before that, Debord was an old school 90's. You know, Michigan offensive guy that won a national championship there that certainly worked for him to.

Joel:
Ok, so would it have been better if these guys would have been around longer?

Will:
I think. Well, I think it is we're talking about in the present. I think you make the Tyson Hilton for Jim Chaney trade every

Joel:
Right.

Will:
Time,

Joel:
You know.

Will:
Not just whatever you feel about Helton. That mean he's a head coach now, you know. And that's not that's not a factor you have to worry about with Cheney. So I think you make that particular trade. Anytime. Justin Wilcox is a head coach now, the only undefeated team left in the PAC 12. The Cal Bears. So, yeah, I think for all of those guys, with the exception of Sal Sunseri.

Joel:
Yeah. Where is he? What's he doing? He is on. He is doing a remake of The Flintstones.

Will:
I do not care to know whatever it is. I do not wish to know and I and Larry Scott, you know, interim coach at Miami. I wonder how much of that ship was already sinking at the start of 2017 with Butch Jones. It's a miracle Tennessee beat Georgia Tech and that first game, statistically not much chance to win that game and Tennessee wanted anyway. So I'm not sure about him. We need to see a larger sample size and a better situation. But overall, I mean, yeah, you can argue. Look at Tennessee again. I don't know the full circumstances around John. Jan SEC not being Tennessee's defensive coordinator anymore. But hey, you. If you had Jan's again, 16, do you give up all those points and yards? Texas, ain't em? I'm not sure that you do. So, yeah, I think continuity when it is available is is a benefit. And I would be curious to compare what I'd like to do with that list as compared to other programs, not Alabama, but other programs in the SCC. And see what kind of coordinator play caller turnover has there been in the last decade. Other places too.

Joel:
Yeah. So my hypothesis is that we just need some continuity for the next two to three years. Even if it gets bad and feels bad for a couple of years, I don't know whether that is going to sport that. It seems like it will, though. So anyway, that's that's sort of where I'm headed, unless the data just says I can't go there.

Will:
Well,

Joel:
But.

Will:
I mean, that's the if you're looking for what's the best argument for Jeremy Pruitt? I mean. That's kind of it. Right.

Joel:
Yeah, but it's

Will:
And

Joel:
Not.

Will:
I think that argument.

Joel:
Yeah, except that all the focus is always on the head coach. Getting rid of the head coach, you know, and and we don't. As we've said, I think every episode of the past five episodes, coordinator continuity is probably more important that we really give it credit for. All right. So we've we've already talked about Jonathan Crompton. And I was hoping maybe you could fill in some gaps there. But before we get to that, I just wanted to say I'm super impressed by your memory of all those facts and details. I don't remember any of them until after you say them. So I'm afraid to say the word donuts, because every time I do. But I will say that I don't think I can remember anything because of all the donuts and headache medicine I've had. And the thing is actually still recording, so donuts must still be a safe word. So anyway, good job remembering all that stuff.

Will:
Thank

Joel:
Super

Will:
You. I

Joel:
Impressed.

Will:
Feel like maybe next week, during the by week, we can do like a tour of happier days. And remember, like things that were better and more exciting because that's you know, I remember all that stuff too. But, you

Joel:
It's

Will:
Know, this is this is

Joel:
Why you

Will:
What's

Joel:
Keep

Will:
New.

Joel:
Coming back.

Will:
Yeah.

Joel:
All right. So back into the archives in the memory banks there. Well, like I said, we've already talked about Crompton, but fill in my gaps there. I'm hoping you can make us feel better on the on the quarterback thing. You fill in the gaps and Crompton and then also talk about Peterman a little bit, if you would.

Will:
So, Crumpton, one thing that is important to remember about Crumpton and this is going a little further back. But, you know, important to remember in 0 6, Tennessee is in the top 10 in the first week in November, which is, you know, that that is a benchmark really for this program of really being in the national conversation. LSU, Jamarcus Russell and Knoxville Ainge has a sprained ankle starts, but he goes like one of six. He can't play. He's not a hundred percent. So they put him Crumpton and they run. Basically the let's throw it up to Robert Meacham and see what happens on offense. And it almost works. Tennessee almost wins that game. They do win that game with instant replay exists in 2006 because Russell fumbled on the last drive. But anyway, that was the first look at Crompton. Was he almost beat LSU in an iconic S.E.C. November football game? Then they go to Arkansas, get waxed the next week, but then Ainge takes every meaningful snap in 2007. And I think from a fan perspective, the infamous fourth quarter against LSU in the 2007 SCC championship game makes people a little more fond of the idea of Crompton than they should have been. Ames comes back with statistically one of the best games in his career, by the way, against Wisconsin in the Outback Bowl. Always. That's worth pointing out to me anyway. We had these this short glimpse of Crumpton that was so exciting than what he almost did, which is really basically I'm a throw it up to Robert Meacham and let him do it. That I think that fueled a lot of what it could have been in 2008. And then what you got in 0 8 right away is 19 of 41 against UCLA and a crushing loss that had a lot to do with with bad play calling and then didn't get any better. I mean, that offense in 0 8, it can't move the ball. It can't get one first down to kick a field goal to beat Auburn in 2008, a couple of weeks later in a game and lose, you know, 14 to twelve. That

Joel:
This is

Will:
Really?

Joel:
The pants offense.

Will:
It really hurt former that game, you know, not just losing, but losing in a way that's no fun. And then they Benji and they go to Nick Stevens. Stevens is OK at Georgia, but you still lose by twelve. I think that everybody gets crushed by Alabama, which again, remember, that's Alabama's first up year with Save and that's year two with Saban. So it's the first time you're getting beat by a superior Alabama team since that man. I don't know, since since the nineteen the early 1990s. So they play Nick Stevens. They played B.J. Coleman. He of the firm handshake

Joel:
Yes.

Will:
Gets them snaps late in the year.

Joel:
I do remember that.

Will:
And I think we spent all offseason. This is I. You and I have started working together, I've came to rocket stop talk right after Kiffin was hired and we spent all that offseason assuming that Jonathan Crompton could not be the answer that there was so bad, there had to be somebody else, Stevens had to be better. And it turns out that he wasn't. And one thing about Kiffin, I said this on sports when 80 last Friday with Josh and Heather, those calls for Stevens came back that UCLA game in Knoxville, content was bad in a game where decent. It's like not exactly like BYU, but decent wins that game easily. But he was bad. And Tennessee lost like 19 to 15. And then they took the air out of the ball against the Gators. And I remember writing around that time when they lost to Auburn that like, look, Kiffin is not gonna change is my he's riding with this guy and this guy is gonna turn it over about one and a half times a game. And that's just who he is. And we should just accept that at this point we've seen enough data. This is who he is. All that stuff. And then all of a sudden. Still still to this day, one of the most surprising things that has ever happened at Newlands Stadium, that Georgia game in 0 9, where all of a sudden he's just an NFL quarterback and Cheney and Kiffin gave him only one side of the field to deal with and all that good stuff.

Will:
But he does that. Then he almost beat Alabama, the very next game out in Tuscaloosa. And then, you know, they ride the black jerseys and they're right. A lot of Montreal Hardesty, too. But they're right. The black jerseys to a dominant win over ranked South Carolina team and they just roll it from there. And so, yeah, I mean, that one image of him in that Georgia game was just completely out of nowhere. But he played himself into the NFL draft in six weeks, basically. And so, yeah, I that's that's what you're hoping for. Peterman No quarterback has ever looked worse at Tennessee than Nathan Peterman ever. So anyone throwing it out about Jarrett Guarantano is either like only seven years old or just like Peterman was the worst. And bless his heart, I said it at the time. Man, I hope something good happens to that kid. But it ain't happening at Tennessee. But it happened in Pittsburgh. It was with Cheney for the first year at Pitt. And then he really did well the next year at Pitt when Cheney had gone to Georgia. But Peterman was still a Pittsburgh. I mean, that dude has played an eight NFL games, eight no quarterback at Tennessee has played other than Peyton Manning and Heath Shuler.

Will:
I don't know how far you've got to go back to find a Tennessee quarterback that appeared in eight regular season NFL games. It is a banana's statistic. So, yes, it can always be done. Crumpton We had longer and more data to believe it wouldn't work than we have with gear. And Tanto Peterman looks worse than any. I mean, I don't know what you would you would have to basically commit mutiny and start playing for the other team to be worse than Peter was at Tennessee. And that dude has played in more, more NFL games regular season than Bray and Clawson and Ainge and Dobbs at this point and all those guys. So who knows? So, yeah, is it possible? Always. We've seen it twice in the last 12 years here. Last 10 years. But. I don't know. I'm hopeful, but it seems like Garen Tanto is getting worse, whereas Peterman was always Peterman was always that way. And Crompton at least had the initial flash. Fair or unfair, aided by a great wide receiver or not. And he wasn't as bad the first six weeks of 2009 as he was in the closets during tennis. Seems like he's getting worse and like big worse with the mental mistakes and that sort of stuff. So I don't I don't know if that is a helpful comparison or not.

Joel:
I am going to assume that it is, because that's what I want to assume.

Will:
Sure.

Joel:
Yeah, I'm gonna water the bamboo is what I'm gonna do.

Will:
Just get it all out there. Let's get all the all the old guys, all the metaphors out there.

Joel:
Yes. Just keep watering the bamboo and eventually it will sprout and will have guaranteed snow in the NFL in six weeks as well. That's that's the plan. Before we wrap up, have you seen this stupid thing from Yahoo! About former.

Will:
Yeah,

Joel:
That

Will:
I

Joel:
That's just

Will:
Hate.

Joel:
Nonsense, isn't it?

Will:
Yeah, I don't. Well, I'm not listening to Pete family about what's actually happening in Tennessee over anybody. One of my least favorite things again is people that have run a fan centric Tennessee Web site for more than a decade. Families get a line in there that's like many fans are now apathetic about whatever. Like he's an actual journalist. We are fans with a keyboard. He's credentialed media. Which fans? How many? How do you know where? Where's it coming from? We just put 80000 thousand people in the stands for Chattanooga. Who are these people that are actually actively calling for Pruitt's job right at this second that have any kind of representation to constitute many? So, yeah, I mean, I took it as that dude has got some issues with Tennessee from from the past. And I would not he would not be at the top of my list of trustworthy folks to have their finger on the pulse of what's happening at Tennessee. And sometimes we say that when the news is things that we don't want. I'm sure there is a percentage of the fanbase that would love for Phillip Fulmer to, you know, take the field against Georgia here in a couple of weeks. But I don't I just do not look at that as there's no reason to believe that that is an accurate understanding what's happening. Andy Staples, who at the athletic, who I feel like is much more connected to what's actually happening in Tennessee, is the one who wrote the piece on good have to be patient right now. And like for a while and let it be bad and let it be Pruitt and let it be bad. And that's the only way out of this mess. That to me is a much, much, much more realistic take on what's happening at Tennessee right now.

Joel:
So I didn't become a fan until I got on campus for law school in 96. So I did not live through the whole changeover from majors to former, but with that perspective, it seems terribly unfair to me to say that Fulmer has a reputation of being a backstabber. I know the story, but you lived through it. You side. Is there any it is that a fair characterization of what happened?

Will:
Well, listen, I get it. You know, the caveat, all this is I was 11 years old, so I can't give you I can tell you what happened in the Games, but I can't give you the full like behind the scenes stuff other than to say the timing was incredibly unfair for Johnny Majors, who won the S.E.C. in 85, 89 and 90 and then in 91 had the miracle at South Bend. And just the the timing of his heart surgery, former coming in and to his absolute credit, beating Georgia at Georgia and then stomping Florida 31 to 14 and at rainstorm made majors come back quickly and end the games they lost. They they lost is a huge favorite against Arkansas when they were ranked third in a country, which is the. Right behind the he Georgia state, Wyoming Memphis list of the worst losses since a separate is a favorite, that Arkansas game is fourth on that list. So a crushing loss there. By one point in the next week, they lost to Alabama 17 to 10. Alabama won the national championship that year. They lost by a touchdown to the national champions. And then they went to South Carolina and scored and went for two because they weren't playing for the tie. They were playing for the win and they didn't get it. And they lost by one. But some of it was that was the first year Arkansas and South Carolina were in the SCC. And there were teams that you expect to beat much the way we thought we'd be beating Missouri around all the time right now.

Will:
And that hasn't been happening. And so you're at a point where summer was the hottest commodity. Here's where I'm getting into guesswork and fuzzy memory because I was only 11. But former was obviously a hot commodity. Former wanted the job, obviously. And as many rumors as you will find about former backstabbing, you'll find just as many unsavory things about Johnny Majors at that time and his behavior at some just his relationships with people and his behavior that might have turned a little bit during that process. So I think there's there is plenty of blame to go around. Super unfair timing wise for four majors. But the thing about former is when that happens, Tennessee the next year, you know, doesn't lose to Alabama. They tie Alabama. They lose that Florida by a touchdown. Shuler comes in second in the Heisman. And they you know, Peyton Manning is a freshman the next year after that. So there was no point in there where nothing happened with former where you said we never should have fired majors. I mean, it just didn't happen. Former can beat Florida. Majors can beat Alabama. So, yeah, I mean, there was never any there was never a reason to go back and say we shouldn't have done the thing that we did, cemented by former winning the whole thing in 1998.

Joel:
Yeah, it just seems to me that, you know, football is a next man up kind of game. You know, when a guy gets hurt. Prayers for that guy. Hope that he does well. But the guy that comes in behind him and fills in for him, he's got to do what he can do. And if he has success, then that's good for the program. And you have to shake it all out later on. I just seems like it was the next man up thing for me. But anyway, freestyle. No question. Just anything you want to talk about. Anything that I missed. Anything you want to say?

Will:
Most important thing I'm saying is a lot riding and a lot right now. But there is a different in all this history. We've gone back and talked about the least fun times, I think, to be a fan and to be a writer about this stuff. The least fun times have been for me the middle of that 2011 season when Bray was hurt. And you're getting beat by thirty one against LSU, 31 against Alabama. Forty two against Arkansas. Think you just knew? I mean, these teams are gonna take a big beating and then at the end of Bush's time in 17. Same thing. I mean, these these teams are just going to take a beating. It is important even losing, as we talked about at the start of this, by 30 ones in the Gators. I appreciate the frustration. I appreciate the idea that they could have done better and I could have played better. I'm willing to set aside whatever happens against Georgia. I say that now and I'm sure something really ridiculous will happen. But I'm willing to say whatever that is aside, man, it is important. It is important for them to compete with Mississippi State, important it and Mississippi State.

Will:
And as people us right now is like a 14 point. David was fine. Like 14. Fine. We need the ability. Investment is the thing now. Pruitt needs it from his team. Pruitt has to have it from high school seniors and juniors right now. And Tennessee football needs needs it from its fans. But fans. I need to be able to turn the television on, not against Georgia and Alabama. That's true. Before last week. But in all the other games, I need to turn the TV on and believe that Tennessee has an opportunity to win the game. So regardless, I mean, from two weeks away, regardless of what happens against Georgia, it is very important to compete against Mississippi State, because if you can't compete against those guys at home. Who? I mean, it's it's almost like we're not going to know what to talk about other than firing it. Which I don't think is going to happen this year anyway. So it's just kind of a fatalistic thing of apathy is the only option left. So. Yep, that's right. Maybe you should not let me freestyle identities because it's not it's not uplifting, but that's that's what I think.

Joel:
All right. No game this week, so no podcast. At the end of the week, also, we'll be living real life. Will's gonna be touring airports.

Will:
Rex.

Joel:
I'll be watching a little house. You know, PA will be losing crops, I'm sure, but we'll be back next week. We're gonna snap and clear. There's another metaphor for you.

Will:
At Man.

Joel:
Yeah, we're gonna get our minds right heading into the Georgia

Will:
That made me

Joel:
Game.

Will:
Feel so much worse. Like just saying that I feel worse now. Oh, no.

Joel:
I want to roll out the orange dog next week.

Will:
Yes. Well, that's at least supposed to make me feel better. I love Dooley for that. The best I have said is in the podcasts like a dozen times. I know, but I still from that time 2011 season. I hear it in my head talking about sick of answering questions about Harper Bray going. He's got a broken thumb. Stop asking me about whether he can grip the football. He's got a broken arm. I just think about that sometimes. Like that's that's kind of where Tennessee is right now. He's got a broken club

Joel:
Got

Will:
Stub

Joel:
A broken thumb.

Will:
Asking his questions. You know, we can't even grip the football right now. So just just

Joel:
But if

Will:
Let it go.

Joel:
He's got really good shower etiquette now.

Will:
Yeah, and the orange pants. Maybe they'll make an appearance, so give us something better to talk about.

Joel:
Yeah. All right. So we'll have all the regular stuff up, including through the bye week. I appreciate everybody listening. If you can,

Will:
Yes.

Joel:
Please give us a rating. Give us a review. Bonus points, if you include the secret phrase, what's what's what's another. Butch Jones.

Will:
I mean, what do you want, champions

Joel:
I

Will:
Of life? Five star hards, 63

Joel:
63

Will:
Efforts. Any of any.

Joel:
Efforts. All right, I'm not going with any of that because that just

Will:
That

Joel:
All

Will:
Way.

Joel:
Made me sick to my stomach. So, yeah.

Will:
You feel unsafe now.

Joel:
All right. The secret phrase is died with a toothache in his heel from old Dan Tucker. All right. So for a Will Shelton Joel Hollingsworth, this has been the Gameday on Rocky Top podcast.

Will:
I don't know that reference, by the way. It's a little house on the Prairie.

Joel:
It is. It's Mr. Edwards always sings old Dan Tucker or Dan Tucker was a final man, a washed is face in a frying pan, combed his hair with a wagon wheel, died with a toothache. It is here. Yeah. So, yeah, if you if you don't know a little house, you're gonna want a little house, man.

Will:
I

Joel:
But.

Will:
Know the gist, but I have not, you know, ever sat down and watched it with intent or purpose.

Joel:
See, I joke that that's really how I received all of my moral instruction in my childhood. It's actually Drew. There's there's a lot of good stuff in there.

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